what does being "christian" really mean

[sxetnrdrmr]

What are you talking about. The whole point of an education is to teach you to think.

American public school system is a HUGE...HUGE system of brainwashing/preparation for the separation of people into worker drones and bosses

Every single education system ever is designed to do 2 things:
1. Give the public a fundamental education so they can be productive members of society
2. separate the people who are willing to work hard from the people who arn't. its why we have grading

of course public schools are going to separate the smart people from the stupid ones. half the point of primary education is to figure out what kids have the drive to work hard, and which kids are actually going to succeed in secondary education. that's why we have grades. This is how literally 100% of education systems in the world work.

In school, we are all herded into the little "box" that is mainstream America...trained to move at certain times like cattle to the next pen; our minds are consistently crushed by the drone of "baseball, Apple Pie, 2.5 kids, white picket fences, investment funds and the mighty dollar"

again, what does this even mean? i don't even really have a response to the cattle thing, cause it doesn't make any sense, unless you're saying they try and train us to think in a certain way. in which case why the hell not? Schools push thinking in a forward direction, in no way do i see any negatives in that.

and I'm sorry that you don't approve of the norms of society today...
nobody pushes sports, people just love sports. everybody in the world loves sports, everyone. even people who dont know what sports is love sports.
I have no idea if apple pie is in reference to food or technology

Also i dont understand why in every post you make about society you bag on the fact that currency exists. Stop telling us you don't like money. everyone likes money, if you dont like money you're lying. The only people i have ever met that have tried to tell me they dont like money are people who didn't try hard enough in school, and either didn't go to college or picked some half *beep* liberal arts major, and then just spout the same "I'm doing it cause i love it, its not about the money, i dont want money to be happy" stuff. Thats fine that you're happy with what you're doing, but i would much rather have schools telling my kids "Pick something you want to do, but be realistic and do something that is going to end up being financially beneficial to you in the long run" than "Do what you want, and expect that society will want you to be a Starbucks Batista well into your 40s to support that womens studies degree" Financial stability is a good thing. it isnt evil. It lets you continue on with the hobbies you enjoy. I would much rather have a different job, and not have my hobbies become my work, cause then my hobbies become work.

Anyone who thinks/acts/dresses outside of the box is quickly corrected until they assume the role, or pushed away so as to not challenge the majorities way of thinking(control)

Nobody ever has told anyone "dont think outside the box"....

also, Do you know why everyone hates hipsters and punk kids? because nothing that they actually do differently than the rest of the group is actually beneficial in any way, its just stupid and a waste of productive time. the only thing hipsters have ever done to benefit me or the people around me is either raise a testing curve cause studying was to mainstream, or making me look incredibly good in a playing audition because their playing technique was to cool to conform to the one we were being asked to play.

also you should be pretty happy that people who are way too far outside the box get corrected pretty quickly, or are at least stifled a little bit, cause there are some pretty weird people in the world, and not having to put up with them makes my day significantly better.




The only thing wrong with american schools is that the pressure to pass has shifted from the students to the teachers, and now the teachers have to compensate in order to make sure kids pass. either by making easier curriculum or having super curves that reward lazy students.

I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, but I literally can't ever agree with a single thing you post on here regarding real life because I dont think you see the world in a big picture view. Every time you post something regarding education or politics i facepalm multiple times throughout the post because it doesn't make sense.

ok...before I even attempt to try to make you understand what I am talking about, I need to have you honestly answer some questions or affirm some things for me. I only know you from posts on the site about drumming and other things, but am getting a clear picture of your background, so I want to see if my guesses are right. Once again, this is not a slam, it is me doing an experiment. I want to know if it is going to be a waste of time to pursue the topic with you. Again, please answer honestly:

1. you are between 19 and 25 (I think you go to Purdue or Notre Dame right?)
2. you have grown up in a middle or upper middle class family
3. mom and dad both went to college, and both worked white collar jobs
4. you grew up in the midwest, in a suburb of a medium sized city
5. you went to a HS where the population of Whites was greater than 90%
6. your family, and you, are moderately religious and definitely Conservative
7. you have never had to solely support yourself without help from mom or dad or scholarships
8. you are not paying anything out of your own pocket for college expenses (tuition)
9. you have not worked a "career" type job yet,

if you answer "yes" to more than 2 of any of the above questions other than #1, you probably will not get where I am coming from with most of my posts about "the big picture"or "real life" . Once again, I am not meaning to be snotty with you, but if you only have a limited idea of what "real life" or the "big picture" is, I can not [possibly have a legitimate discussion. It would be like someone trying to have a discussion about string theory with me...I just don't get it!

well, given your age alone, I can't imagine most people on this board would agree that you have had enough real world experience to say that you have a wholeistic view on life. Also, given your socioeconomic status, and some of your responses to other non-drumming relates posts on this forum, I can surmise that you have never really had to live outside of the upper-middle class comfort bubble your parents have provided for you. So, taking just that small amount of information I have about your background, I can safely say that no matter how I try to respond to your post, you won't understand where I am coming from. So I don't know if i want to take the time.

Even in the above post, you use MANY comments that show me that you do NOT have a wholeistic view on life. Some examples: (the most astounding in bold)

-

of course public schools are going to separate the smart people from the stupid ones.

- stupid ones.....VERY wholeistic
-

nobody pushes sports, people just love sports. everybody in the world loves sports, everyone. even people who dont know what sports is love sports.

- yep, except the 4 billion people living in 2nd and 3rd world countries who are just worried about eating, and getting to the next day...i'll bet they LOVE sports
-

Also i dont understand why in every post you make about society you bag on the fact that currency exists. Stop telling us you don't like money. everyone likes money, if you dont like money you're lying. The only people i have ever met that have tried to tell me they dont like money are people who didn't try hard enough in school, and either didn't go to college or picked some half *beep* liberal arts major, and then just spout the same "I'm doing it cause i love it, its not about the money, i dont want money to be happy" stuff. Thats fine that you're happy with what you're doing, but i would much rather have schools telling my kids "Pick something you want to do, but be realistic and do something that is going to end up being financially beneficial to you in the long run" than "Do what you want, and expect that society will want you to be a Starbucks Batista well into your 40s to support that womens studies degree" Financial stability is a good thing. it isnt evil. It lets you continue on with the hobbies you enjoy. I would much rather have a different job, and not have my hobbies become my work, cause then my hobbies become work.

- this paragraph right here is just shocking. The amount of close minded assumptions and stereotyping is just astounding. This blows any and all credibiltiy you would have in claiming a "wholeistic" look on life...
-

also, Do you know why everyone hates hipsters and punk kids? because nothing that they actually do differently than the rest of the group is actually beneficial in any way, its just stupid and a waste of productive time. the only thing hipsters have ever done to benefit me or the people around me is either raise a testing curve cause studying was to mainstream, or making me look incredibly good in a playing audition because their playing technique was to cool to conform to the one we were being asked to play.

- what? I just.....what? Everyone who I showed this chunk to had the same reaction

also you should be pretty happy that people who are way too far outside the box get corrected pretty quickly, or are at least stifled a little bit, cause there are some pretty weird people in the world, and not having to put up with them makes my day significantly better.

this, however, was the number one blow to any shred of credibility you had left at the end of the post. This is absolutely laughable, and I can't believe you even posted this in a forum where other people would see it. Just amazing...or not given the track record you were showing throughout

so anyways, get outside of your bubble man, and gain some integrity. It is a very liberating experience. In light the above evidence, I am not going to take the time to try to argue my points with you. We will not see eye to eye. I would talk drumming with you forever because i don't think there is a topic on drumming that I have ever disagreed with you about, but this is another world!

[KJennings]

Real quick, imma let you finish.... but impoverished people in third world countries do in fact love sports. He's pretty much right when he says everybody loves sports. Soccer.

[MPolarinakis]

Real quick, imma let you finish.... but impoverished people in third world countries do in fact love sports. He's pretty much right when he says everybody loves sports. Soccer.

i agree with everything i wrote on that post.

[KJennings]

This is relevant for Polarnakis and sxetnrdrmr

[hotbeats645]

Polarnakis-people who are different and weird are stupid and bother me, so they should be less different so I don't have to deal with them. I'm so much better than everybody because I've accepted my place in society. If you don't succeed in public school, you must be stupid, because I succeeded and look how successful I'm going to be!


so yeah. If our education system is so flawless, how come we're nowhere near the top of the world in education?

[snarescience]

I guess I will toss in my $0.02...

I pretty much drank the Koolaid and bought into the system 100% until I finally started working for myself and doing my own thing (at age 28). I then had the time and creative energy to think / travel / learn more about the world and my views have shifted from Polarnakis's towards sxetnrdrmr's. Not saying I completely disagree with Polarnakis or that I agree with everything sxetnrdrmr says, but my worldview has definitely shifted in that direction.

Also, I played soccer with the dirt-poor (measured in $$$) hill tribe people in Northern Thailand. They very much enjoy sports.

[snarescience]

I feel like George Carlin hits the nail on the head here:

"The upper class: keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class: pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there...just to scare the *beep* out of the middle class." - on the economic and social classes in America

The education system is set up to prepare people to do all the work and pay all the taxes. It just so happens to work out nicely that school (8 hrs / day, 5 days / week, from age 5-18) allows middle class parents time to do all the work.

College is another story. Student Loans are currently in a HUGE bubble. And those have a special exemption from being wiped out in the case of bankruptcy. Hello debt-serfdom for life!

Start reading some non-mainstream media news sources.

[MPolarinakis]

Polarnakis-people who are different and weird are stupid and bother me, so they should be less different so I don't have to deal with them. I'm so much better than everybody because I've accepted my place in society. If you don't succeed in public school, you must be stupid, because I succeeded and look how successful I'm going to be!


so yeah. If our education system is so flawless, how come we're nowhere near the top of the world in education?

Our education system is flawed because there isn't enough prayer in schools. Also god created the school system. And America. Everything is run according to his plan

[sxetnrdrmr]

Our education system is flawed because there isn't enough prayer in schools. Also god created the school system. And America. Everything is run according to his plan

I reeeaaallllyyyyyy hope this is sarcasm....and need to catch my breath from laughing so hard

[sxetnrdrmr]

Real quick, imma let you finish.... but impoverished people in third world countries do in fact love sports. He's pretty much right when he says everybody loves sports. Soccer.

No he is not, because I personally know at least 30-40 people who could give a crap and a half about sports....but that is not the real issue here

[sxetnrdrmr]

I feel like George Carlin hits the nail on the head here:

"The upper class: keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class: pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there...just to scare the *beep* out of the middle class." - on the economic and social classes in America

The education system is set up to prepare people to do all the work and pay all the taxes. It just so happens to work out nicely that school (8 hrs / day, 5 days / week, from age 5-18) allows middle class parents time to do all the work.

College is another story. Student Loans are currently in a HUGE bubble. And those have a special exemption from being wiped out in the case of bankruptcy. Hello debt-serfdom for life!

Start reading some non-mainstream media news sources.

This is gold!!!!

[MPolarinakis]

Our education system is flawed because there isn't enough prayer in schools. Also god created the school system. And America. Everything is run according to his plan

I reeeaaallllyyyyyy hope this is sarcasm....and need to catch my breath from laughing so hard

[KJennings]

Real quick, imma let you finish.... but impoverished people in third world countries do in fact love sports. He's pretty much right when he says everybody loves sports. Soccer.

No he is not, because I personally know at least 30-40 people who could give a crap and a half about sports....but that is not the real issue here

"Men pretty much love women."- me

"No they don't because I know someone likes guys." -you

[hotbeats645]

most people in the world like sports-a pretty true statement.


saying that, more people in the world like music, especially in those second and third world countries. music has existed longer that sports, money, etc. music is literally a language. it is something that transcends everything else, if you listen or have any clue at all what you're talking about. people who chose to study something like music, or art, or dance, are stupid or useless to society? without people like this, society wouldn't exist at the level it's at today.

[Ryan]

God created America?

I once had a lengthy conversation with a very, VERY intelligent, educated Christian friend of mine about the colonization of the early Unites States. He maintained that the murder, rape, torture, pillaging and displacement of the native Americans by Anglo-Saxon Europeans was God's will, inasmuch as God "loved" the Christian Europeans and hated the pagan natives. He used examples of the Christian god ordering the murder, plundering, enslavement and displacement of pagan peoples in the Old Testament Bible to support his position. His is an example of the degree to which otherwise healthy minds can be ransacked by religion.

As an aside, it only takes a two-minute Google search to find out how the founding fathers felt about religion; especially Christianity.

[lij2015]

I LOVE snarescience's comment about the class system.
And also I wouldn't really call what you believe in(Hotbeats) a religion or faith. More of a belief system.

[hotbeats645]

I LOVE snarescience's comment about the class system.
And also I wouldn't really call what you believe in(Hotbeats) a religion or faith. More of a belief system.

re·li·gion   [ri-lij-uhn]
noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.



religion=belief system.

[lij2015]

I LOVE snarescience's comment about the class system.
And also I wouldn't really call what you believe in(Hotbeats) a religion or faith. More of a belief system.

re·li·gion   [ri-lij-uhn]
noun
1.
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.



religion=belief system.

Seems I was taught wrong then. I apologize.

[hotbeats645]

its ok i'm definitely not *beep*, i don't really think of it as a religion either, it's just how I live. thats how i think religions should be operated, but with a lot of the mainstream ones there seems to be this "look at me, i'm a good christian/other religion, if you don't follow my beliefs you're going to hell". why don't you just be a good person like your "god" says and let everybody else try to to their version of the same

[lij2015]

its ok i'm definitely not *beep*, i don't really think of it as a religion either, it's just how I live. thats how i think religions should be operated, but with a lot of the mainstream ones there seems to be this "look at me, i'm a good christian/other religion, if you don't follow my beliefs you're going to hell". why don't you just be a good person like your "god" says and let everybody else try to to their version of the same

I gotcha. I've noticed it's pretty much only christian religions(in this country) that people get offended over or shove in your face. I also HATE how many freaking branches of Christianity there are.

[snarescience]

hotbeats: sry I thought I was quoting your post above but it turns out I was editing it. I tried to restore it to the original text as best I could...

Anyway, I was trying to post this:

why don't you just be a good person like your "god" says and let everybody else try to to their version of the same

Ideas that have a built-in self-replication mechanism are much more likely to survive over time.

[ottomagne]

I thought it was pretty obvious that Polarankis was being sarcastic about the god statement.

[hotbeats645]

I thought it was pretty obvious that Polarankis was being sarcastic about the god statement.

quite so. i think talk has kind moved back on the topic of what christianity and religion are

[ajcf1995]

I thought it was pretty obvious that Polarankis was being sarcastic about the god statement.

quite so. i think talk has kind moved back on the topic of what christianity and religion are

This is one of the more interesting threads I've read. So many different opinions just to realize we'll never agree.

[Ryan]

This is one of the more interesting threads I've read. So many different opinions just to realize we'll never agree.

Very few people are familiar with Biblical scholarship. Even fewer have taken any time to brush up on it. This is a tragedy, because scholarship really is where a religion is made or broken, and Christianity definitely is not a religion that can withstand even mild scrutiny. In fact, in the modern era, where we're familiar with forensic science, thanks to TV shows like CSI, most of us fail to realize how contrary the "forensic" evidence runs to the central claims of the Christian religion. That being the case, here's me doing what I do a lot of lately: shedding some light on my former religion. I doubt that anything I'm saying will fall on maleable minds, but I figure it's worth a shot. So here are some brief answers to some of the tenets of Biblical Christianity:

1.) Is the Bible the infallible word of God?

Of course not. The Bible's an absolute disaster. If you do a quick Google search, you'll have no trouble finding websites which list hundreds, and even thousands, of contradictions in the Bible. You'll also find absurdities, moral atrocities and information that contrary to everything we in the modern world know about anything. We know that the first five books of the Bible were not written by Moses; in fact, they were written by four different authors at four distinct points in history, seperated by hundreds of years. We know that 2nd Timothy and 2nd Peter are forgeries, as well as at least a few of Paul's epistles, if not several of them. What we DON'T know is who wrote Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, since they're anonymous documents that turned up in the first century and were later ascribed to M, M, L and J. Importantly, this isn't fringe information; these are things you would learn if you went to Seminary; these are the very basics. The professionals who have doctoral degrees, who work at universities and who have been analyzing historical evidence for centuries understand where the various Bible stories come from and why the Bible says the things that it says. Needless to say, you're never, ever going to find a credible Biblical scholar who thinks that the Bible was written by an all-knowing god.

2.) Can Christianity be resolved with our understanding of science?

Of course not. The universe began about 14 billion years ago, not 6,000. The Earth is an oblate spheroid, orbiting an ordinary star in an ordinary galaxy, out of hundreds of billions. It is not covered by the "firmament," as the Bible claims, and it does not rest on a set of pillars, as the Bible also claims. The sun does not orbit the Earth. The moon does not give off its own light. The Earth has never been covered in liquid water. The human race was not started by two fully-formed Homo sapiens. Men have never lived to be 900 years old. Bats are not birds. Rabbits are not ruminants. Abidijah was not two years older than his own father. Solomon did not fit 80 million pounds of gold and silver in to a building 35x40x90. Hundreds of zombie Israelites did not rise from their graves and wander the streets of Jerusalem upon Jesus' death. The defenders of the faith have been altering their understanding of the Christian religion since the beginning. They've had to, in order to accomodate the ever-growing obviousness of science and reason, and to accomodate the ever-growing obviousness of the Biblical authors' ignorance. You cannot have science and Christianity at the same time. If your pastor tells you the opposite, keep in mind that he's A PASTOR. Chances are extremely slim that he ever took Biological Anthropology.

3.) Are the Biblical stories historical?

Some are; some aren't. The problem is that so many of the stories central to Christianity aren't. Nobody's pushing for a literal Moses any more. We know that Moses didn't actually exist in history. Nobody's pushing for a literal Adam and Eve. The idea of it is ridiculous. Nobody's pushing for a literal exodus. Heck, nobody's pushing the idea that a large number of Hebrews ever even lived in ancient Egypt. Nobody's pushing for a swift military conquest of Canaan. Nobody's pushing for ancient Israel's being a major player in the Near-East. None of these pillars of the faith is historical at all. And NONE of the dozens of historians living immediately near Jesus even mentioned his existence, let alone the sweeping folkloric grandiosity with which we see him portrayed in Christian scripture. Nobody's pushing for the Jesus of Biblical tradition. He can't have existed in histroy, even if he is the son of God. The Bible has him born in two different years, in two different places, dying on two different days, being from two different family lines, doing contradictory things, being in contradictory places, holding contradictory views, etc. The Biblical Jesus is great, but did he actually exist in history? No. Did some eccentric apocalyptic rabbi who roughly fit the description of Jesus? Maybe. Probably. But we can't know, because there is almost no reliable evidence of this man. The historical Jesus is lost in history. All we know for sure is that dozens of Gospels were written about him, and only four made it in to the Bible, because extremely selfish men fought to have them put there. They did this to keep themselves in power and to keep rival Christian churches out of power. It had nothing to do with God. It had everything to do with political power.

4.) Are the Biblical stories original?

Anything but. The ancient Sumerian Enuma Elish predates Genesis by a thousand years, and it features the Sumerian gods creating the universe in sequence, fearing the rise in man's knowledge, sending a serpent to interfere with man, kicking man out of a garden, etc. The story of Sargon of Akkad is suspiciously similar to the story of Moses, down to small details. The Epic of Gilgamesh pretty much IS the story of Noah, almost concept-for-concept. The story of a god-man being born to a virgin was old news by the time Jesus used it. The story of a god-man rising from the dead was old news. The story of a god-man having a star denote his birth, drawing 12 disciples, being baptized by a baptizer figure, changing water in to wine at a wedding, walking on water and raising men from the dead was old news. That's why church fathers in the first and second centuries had such a hard time winning converts; they kept getting the same objection: "We've already heard these stories about our gods. Tell us something new." The tales about Jesus are anything but original to Christianity.

5.) Does Jesus exist?

Apparently not. Jesus claimed, in plain language, that he would return to Earth immediately after rising from the dead. It hasn't happened. The Christian church has had to perform intellectual backflips to accomodate this obvious problem, and none of these backflips has had anything but the ring of desperation. Furthermore, double-blind studies on intercessory prayer to Jesus have been conducted, using terminally-ill hospital patients. They've revealed time and again that prayers to Jesus do absolutely NOTHING to help sick and dying people. Even if they did, Jesus, for some reason, refuses to heal amputees. Isn't that odd?

Jesus, if he exists, allows even his most faithful followers to die at the hands of excruciating dieases that he himself would have to have ("intelligently") designed. If he exists, he has allowed 99.9% of all plant and animal species that have ever lived to go extinct, because they weren't designed well enough to survive in their respective environments. If he exists, he sat with his arms folded for tens upon tens of THOUSANDS of years, watching the human species struggle to survive, often dying from their teeth coming in, or dying from childbirth, or dying from natural disasters that he himself masterminded; from wars, from starvation, from fear. And it wasn't until the very last 1% of that time that Jesus thought, "I'm going to go ahead and intervene here. THIS, my faithful subjects, is how you should have been living your lives the whole time."

And I'm sorry, but we must, as a race of thinking creatures, have more self-respect than to believe THAT. Jesus tapdancing CHRIST.

To accept this story in ANY of its thousands of iterations, (since none of the people claiming to communicate with Jesus can decide which version of the Jesus story is authentic), is to openly accept stupidity. All of the regions of the United States that saturate themselves with fundamentalist Christianity fare the worst in practically every category that measures quality of life. The Bible Belt is a collection of 80 million superstitious bumpkins who not only resist education, but who PRIDE themselves on their ability to resist education. To them, it's as if believing absurdities is a demonstration of faith. These Coke-guzzling, gun-shooting, God-fearing, homophobic, morbidly-obese, home-schooled Jerry Falwell-types hold the rest of the nation - and in some senses, the world - captive at the polls every four years. Our forefathers took great care to prevent this, but it's impossible to legislate away stupidity. And the more enlightened Christianities of the Northeast and West Coast still turn on a collection of beliefs that are simply not true.

Christianity is a collection of myths and fables that positively NO Christian would believe, had he or she been raised outside of the Christian bubble. The scholars who actually understand Christianity are in unanimous agreement on that. If Christians themselves aren't, it's because they either don't have the information or because they're ignoring it.