Scales an issue? NOT ANYMORE BUDDY! (Updated 12/27/2011)

[Memphonian]

Ugh. I still have to finish all my other topics pertaining to mallets (they've been sitting in my drafts for a while now), but my desktop chrashed, which is where I had all my pictures and stuff saved. Grr.

[littlesnareboy]

I have a question and since this is the only thread that posted anything about the different modes I thought I should ask here.

Okay so if we have C major scale and play the equivalent minor we would have A natural minor correct? But if we have play the C major scales Aeolian mode, then we would be starting on A. So that would make A natural minor and A Aeolian ( or C Aeolian not sure how you would describe it) the same thing wouldn't it? Does this apply to all natural minor and Aeolian scales?

[rhythmaniacs]

I have a question and since this is the only thread that posted anything about the different modes I thought I should ask here.

Okay so if we have C major scale and play the equivalent minor we would have A natural minor correct? But if we have play the C major scales Aeolian mode, then we would be starting on A. So that would make A natural minor and A Aeolian ( or C Aeolian not sure how you would describe it) the same thing wouldn't it? Does this apply to all natural minor and Aeolian scales?

OK here is where it can get a little confusing...stay with me. There are 2 different ways to determine the modes. They are 'Relative' and 'Parallel'.

Relative is basically starting on each note of the scale degree (1,2,3 etc or C,D,E etc) and ending on that note to create different modes.

Parallel are modes based on the same notes as C major (or any other scale...in this case C). They function as a different key and the starting note...not the relative Major scale is the root note. Ex: Phrygian mode starting on E (same notes as C major) is E phrygian and not C phrygian. Also the phrygian mode starting on C (which would be Ab Major) is C phrygian, not Ab phrygian. Soooooooo

To answer your initial question. C Major is also known as C Ionian. A minor (relative natural minor to C) is also known as A aeolian (6th scale degree of C major).

It may make much more sense to learn the parallel mode instead of relative at first, though you should understand both ways. Just know your scale degrees. C=1 D=2 E=3 F=4 G=5 A=6 B=7 I learned an acronym to memorize the modes. My HS theory teacher studied at Ithaca whose prof. was Mary Arliss (spelling)?
I Don't Particularly Like Mary Arliss's Legs..........Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian

Natural Minor = Aeolian mode
Major = Ionian mode

Back to your question what would C Aeolian then be?..........3b's Eb Major starting on C..........which is basically C minor. Follow me?

I LOVE MODES AND THEORY!

[rhythmaniacs]

Melodic is a bit more tricky. It has two different parts; The ascending and descending parts are different. On the way up, you raise the 6th and 7th. On the way down, play it as the natural minor scale.

Ascending Melodic
A B C D E F# G# A
Descending Melodic
A G F E D C B A

It's tricky at first to not get the two mixed up, but it's fine.

I would have to disagree with this only statement. There are proven examples from the great contrapuntal composer J.S. Bach showing melodic minor sections in his music. I strongly believe to this day (I used to not believe this) that the melodic minor scale does not change when descending.

Ascending Melodic
A B C D E F# G# A
Descending Melodic
A G# F# E D C B A

[teh_Guardian]

There are only about 120 scales to learn, so it's a piece of cake!

[AWA]

Melodic is a bit more tricky. It has two different parts; The ascending and descending parts are different. On the way up, you raise the 6th and 7th. On the way down, play it as the natural minor scale.

Ascending Melodic
A B C D E F# G# A
Descending Melodic
A G F E D C B A

It's tricky at first to not get the two mixed up, but it's fine.

I would have to disagree with this only statement. There are proven examples from the great contrapuntal composer J.S. Bach showing melodic minor sections in his music. I strongly believe to this day (I used to not believe this) that the melodic minor scale does not change when descending.

Ascending Melodic
A B C D E F# G# A
Descending Melodic
A G# F# E D C B A

This is incorrect. As explained in the Official Music Theory thread, the musical purpose of raising the 7th scale degree is to create a more powerful, semitonal movement from the subtonic to the tonic (creating a leading-tone relation); it is a harmonic function (specifically, dominant). In the minor tonality, this would mean that an ascending melodic line including the raised 7th would include an interval of an augmented second between the 6th and #7th scale degrees. This is forbidden, for various reasons. Hence, when writing a melodic line, the 6th scale degree is also raised, so as to eliminate the forbidden interval (it also has the effect of further strengthening the harmonic progression to i).

The reason that the 6th and 7th scale degrees are not raised in the descending direction is that there is no need to; descending, the subtonic does not move to the tonic, so the semitonal relationship created by raising it would actually be counterproductive, and (in the minor tonality) slightly dissonant. Since the 7th is not raised, there is no reason to raise the 6th, so it is not done. As a rule of thumb, stay diatonic unless otherwise noted.

The important thing to get out of this is that one mustn't consider only the melodic functions of pitches; they also have specific harmonic functions, which underpin the reasons why certain customs are customary.

[littlesnareboy]

I have a question and since this is the only thread that posted anything about the different modes I thought I should ask here.

Okay so if we have C major scale and play the equivalent minor we would have A natural minor correct? But if we have play the C major scales Aeolian mode, then we would be starting on A. So that would make A natural minor and A Aeolian ( or C Aeolian not sure how you would describe it) the same thing wouldn't it? Does this apply to all natural minor and Aeolian scales?

OK here is where it can get a little confusing...stay with me. There are 2 different ways to determine the modes. They are 'Relative' and 'Parallel'.

Relative is basically starting on each note of the scale degree (1,2,3 etc or C,D,E etc) and ending on that note to create different modes.

Parallel are modes based on the same notes as C major (or any other scale...in this case C). They function as a different key and the starting note...not the relative Major scale is the root note. Ex: Phrygian mode starting on E (same notes as C major) is E phrygian and not C phrygian. Also the phrygian mode starting on C (which would be Ab Major) is C phrygian, not Ab phrygian. Soooooooo

To answer your initial question. C Major is also known as C Ionian. A minor (relative natural minor to C) is also known as A aeolian (6th scale degree of C major).

It may make much more sense to learn the parallel mode instead of relative at first, though you should understand both ways. Just know your scale degrees. C=1 D=2 E=3 F=4 G=5 A=6 B=7 I learned an acronym to memorize the modes. My HS theory teacher studied at Ithaca whose prof. was Mary Arliss (spelling)?
I Don't Particularly Like Mary Arliss's Legs..........Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian

Natural Minor = Aeolian mode
Major = Ionian mode

Back to your question what would C Aeolian then be?..........3b's Eb Major starting on C..........which is basically C minor. Follow me?

I LOVE MODES AND THEORY!

I think I get it but let's test it just to make sure. The scale is "named" after its starting tone and mode, but has the key of its natural major? So for example:

D E F G A B C D

It's starting on D so it's D _____. Then after realizing its key we see it's relative major is C. Using the ID numbers D is "Number 2" of the C major scale. 2=Dorian. Therefore the scale posted above is D Dorian?

[rhythmaniacs]

Melodic is a bit more tricky. It has two different parts; The ascending and descending parts are different. On the way up, you raise the 6th and 7th. On the way down, play it as the natural minor scale.

Ascending Melodic
A B C D E F# G# A
Descending Melodic
A G F E D C B A

It's tricky at first to not get the two mixed up, but it's fine.

I would have to disagree with this only statement. There are proven examples from the great contrapuntal composer J.S. Bach showing melodic minor sections in his music. I strongly believe to this day (I used to not believe this) that the melodic minor scale does not change when descending.

Ascending Melodic
A B C D E F# G# A
Descending Melodic
A G# F# E D C B A

This is incorrect. As explained in the Official Music Theory thread, the musical purpose of raising the 7th scale degree is to create a more powerful, semitonal movement from the subtonic to the tonic (creating a leading-tone relation); it is a harmonic function (specifically, dominant). In the minor tonality, this would mean that an ascending melodic line including the raised 7th would include an interval of an augmented second between the 6th and #7th scale degrees. This is forbidden, for various reasons. Hence, when writing a melodic line, the 6th scale degree is also raised, so as to eliminate the forbidden interval (it also has the effect of further strengthening the harmonic progression to i).

The reason that the 6th and 7th scale degrees are not raised in the descending direction is that there is no need to; descending, the subtonic does not move to the tonic, so the semitonal relationship created by raising it would actually be counterproductive, and (in the minor tonality) slightly dissonant. Since the 7th is not raised, there is no reason to raise the 6th, so it is not done. As a rule of thumb, stay diatonic unless otherwise noted.

The important thing to get out of this is that one mustn't consider only the melodic functions of pitches; they also have specific harmonic functions, which underpin the reasons why certain customs are customary.

Good points but I still disagree.

[hotbeats645]

i like scales

[lij2015]

I was an 8th grader this past year, and pretty much the only one who could play mallets decent, which I can play very well( in order to make PIA as an 8th grader)
I'm going to have to show this to my old band director. You are VERY knowledgeable when it comes to Mallet study and what not.
Kudos to you bud.

[SagePercussion]

My teacher told me you lower the 6th and 7th when going back down in melodic... I believe he said that.

[Andymac]

My teacher told me you lower the 6th and 7th when going back down in melodic... I believe he said that.

They were correct.

[petrolika]

Dude, helps heaps

[SagePercussion]

My teacher told me you lower the 6th and 7th when going back down in melodic... I believe he said that.

They were correct.

So A minor in melodic would be
Ascending
A B C D E F# G# A

Descending
A G F E D Cb Bb A

??
cause he told me it works that way I just wrote
You guys are writing like this when descending... and that just doesn't go with what I learned... maybe I learned it wrong .

A G F E D C B A

so its the same when going down as A minor.

[Andymac]

My teacher told me you lower the 6th and 7th when going back down in melodic... I believe he said that.

They were correct.

So A minor in melodic would be
Ascending
A B C D E F# G# A

Descending
A G F E D Cb Bb A

??
cause he told me it works that way I just wrote
You guys are writing like this when descending... and that just doesn't go with what I learned... maybe I learned it wrong .

A G F E D C B A

so its the same when going down as A minor.

Descending
AGFEDCBA

Ascending, the 6th and 7th scale degree are raised. When it goes back down, they're not raised anymore. So when someone is saying that they lower the 6th and 7th, they just mean they aren't raised. Sorry for the confusion.

[SagePercussion]

Thank you for clarifying .

[Memphonian]

I updated the OP. More information on modes. Sorry, I've been aaway from SS for a while now.

[bobbthetomato]

Thank you so much! This base helped me much!

[Memphonian]

Thank you so much! This base helped me much!

Your welcome!

[Buranri]

.

[gamertooth17]

It'd be cool to include harmonic minor and its modes. and the blues scale, jazz minor scale, bebop. and etc,etc

[That'snotadrum]

So, The equation for a minor scale is all whole steps?

[gamertooth17]

So, The equation for a minor scale is all whole steps?

No. For example, the A minor scale:
A to B (whole)
B to C (half)
C to D (whole)
D to E (whole)
E to F (half)
F to G (whole)
G to A (whole)

Or if you know the relative major, just descend 3 half steps from the major's root.

Hope I helped.